by Irina Tsukerman
The following analysis is based on the interview between Vernas Hefzy and Bassem Naim.
The original interview appeared in Masr Times, on 02/11/2025
https://www.masrtimes.com/495874
English Translation of the Interview for Reference:
In the first interview after the ceasefire.. Bassem Naim via “Egypt Times”: We do not aim to remain in power in the Gaza Strip.. He confirms: Trump’s statements reveal his ignorance of the nature of reality.. We gave up forming a government and agreed to the Egyptian proposal
Dialogue – Farnas Hafzy Tuesday 11/February/2025 – 09:52 PM
In light of the keenness of the “Egypt Times” website to follow the events in the Gaza Strip since the Al-Aqsa flood on October 7, 2023, through the Gaza War, and the developments taking place in the Middle East region, and attempts to dissolve borders and reshape the map of the region and the world in the context of a new “Balfour Declaration”, with the aim of liquidating the Palestinian cause and uprooting a people from their land, who remained under bombardment for fifteen months, in a reward for war criminals seeking a historic opportunity for a second Nakba, as former Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion did previously.
Amidst an atmosphere charged with events that have put the Middle East on a hot plate of conflicts and wars, in addition to diplomatic efforts to confront displacement and ethnic cleansing plans, the “Egypt Times” website interviewed a high-ranking leader, the head of the political department of Hamas, member of the political bureau and former Palestinian Minister of Health, Dr. Basem Naim, who revealed details of the “day after” for Hamas in Gaza, developments in implementing the ceasefire agreement, the movement’s vision of the Egyptian position towards the Palestinian cause, the diplomatic efforts made to confront displacement plans, and the statements of US President Donald Trump regarding displacement from Gaza.
Every day, US President Donald Trump’s statements about displacing the Palestinians in Gaza to Egypt and Jordan are renewed, and recently the matter has also begun to include other Arab countries. How does Hamas view this?
The Palestinian people are the owners of the land and the cause, and they are the ones who decide their future. The mere presentation of these ideas is considered a human crime and ethnic cleansing of the indigenous people who live on their land. Trying to beautify the image by saying that Gaza is destroyed and its people are unable to live in it, and that the American president is the one who wants to help them, is rejected, unacceptable and unacceptable talk, because the Palestinians did not ask anyone to help them in this way.
We have seen tens of thousands of Palestinians return from the south to the north, knowing full well that their homes are destroyed, and that there is no water, medicine or food, yet they cling to their land.
More importantly, instead of prosecuting and punishing the war criminals, Netanyahu and his government, according to international law and based on the decisions of international courts, Trump is rewarding them for achieving the goal they failed to achieve, which is the generals’ plan to displace the residents of Gaza from the northern part of the Strip. He wants to reward the criminal at the expense of the victims. But the Palestinians will continue to cling to their land in light of the war and the plans, and will not allow Trump or anyone else to implement these proposals.
Rather, the solution is to provide relief to the people of Gaza and rebuild it with the participation of the Palestinians on the ground, and to address the roots of the problem, which is ending the Israeli occupation and establishing a Palestinian state.
At first, before the start of his term, Trump sought to stop the fire in Gaza and called for peace in the region, but his calls for displacement now may lead the region into a dark tunnel. Do you see a contradiction in the decisions of the American president?
Partly true, there is indeed a contradiction in Trump’s decisions, as he previously stated that he wanted to stop the war and wanted peace, stability and prosperity in the Middle East, but his statements about displacing the Palestinians are pushing the region towards instability, and thus towards escalation and renewal of the war.. This has no explanation other than ignorance of the nature of reality or that it is in line with Netanyahu’s plan.
The Egyptian state, with its leadership and diplomacy, continues to confront all plans calling for the displacement of the Palestinian people from their land. How does Hamas view this?
Certainly, this is an opportunity through the ” Egypt Times ” website to extend my sincere thanks and appreciation to the Arab Republic of Egypt, its presidency, leadership, government, people and parliament, for these firm and clear positions that do not tolerate exaggeration, that the displacement of the Palestinian people is rejected, and that they will not be a party or an assistant in any of these plans. And that they are completely the opposite, taking all necessary steps to prevent displacement and enhance the stability of the people in their land, including the plan for urgent relief and shelter and later reconstruction.
In addition to the broad political role and work at the Arab, Islamic and international levels of the Arab Republic of Egypt to make it clear to Trump and his administration that this step is very dangerous and will lead to the region blowing up again, and that it will not lead to stability, prosperity or peace.
How does Hamas see the day after? Will it cling to control the Gaza Strip?
Hamas announced before the war on Gaza that the movement is not interested in ruling the Gaza Strip. We are ready to hand over power to a national unity government, and this is what we did in 2014, and then it was repeated within the framework of the reconciliation that took place in Cairo in 2017, and the administrative committee that carries out the government’s work in the Gaza Strip was dissolved. Therefore, this is a fixed position for the Hamas movement, that we are not interested in ruling, but we are interested in managing Palestinian affairs on the basis of national reconciliation and national partnership in managing Palestinian affairs. Also, less than a week after the start of the war, the movement’s late leader Ismail Haniyeh announced that in addition to searching for how to reach a ceasefire, the Palestinian search was for how to form a national unity government that would manage all Palestinian territories in partnership and consensus. Now, in the absence of this option, we have accepted the Egyptian proposal of the “Community Support Committee,” which is based on forming a committee to manage Gaza’s affairs. This option was welcomed, and cooperation was established with our brothers in Egypt, and we held dialogue with our brothers in the Fatah movement. We have shown all flexibility to achieve this option, but unfortunately, until this moment, the Fatah movement rejects this option.
Therefore, we reaffirm through your platform that we do not aim to remain in power in the Gaza Strip. We are ready to hand over the administration of the Strip to a national unity government or to a committee by national consensus, but at the same time, if none of these options are achieved, we will certainly not leave Gaza to a vacuum and chaos, and we will bear our responsibilities in the Gaza Strip until an alternative option is agreed upon.
Are there any new steps regarding starting the second phase of the agreement, which is considered the most important?
It has not yet begun, especially after Trump’s meeting with Netanyahu and his statements that caused the ceasefire agreement to be halted in its second phase. There are no details about the second phase of negotiations, and it has not yet begun. The second phase was supposed to begin on the sixteenth day of the agreement, but Netanyahu linked the start of the second phase negotiations to his visit to Washington and his return from it. We emphasize our firm position, and we are committed to the agreement and interested in implementing it, and we are also interested in giving every opportunity to make it a success and overcome any obstacle or challenge it faces. However, what we see is that Israel is trying to procrastinate, obstruct and put obstacles in the way of implementing this agreement, as we saw in implementing the first humanitarian phase, whether in bringing in aid to the residents of the Gaza Strip, as there is a major problem in bringing in tents and caravans for shelter, in addition to the electricity needs from generators and solar energy. There is also a problem in the movement of people at the crossing, so we demand that Israel be obligated to implement the agreement and not expose it to danger and begin negotiations on the second phase, which includes the most important thing: the complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza and a complete ceasefire.
What is the chance of releasing heavy-caliber prisoners such as Marwan Barghouti, Abdullah Barghouti and Ahmed Saadat, during a prisoner exchange deal?
At the beginning of the battle, we announced that we were targeting a deal to release all Palestinian prisoners in the occupation’s prisons in exchange for the Israelis held by the resistance. In Israel, they insisted that this be done in stages, but our goal is to not leave a single Palestinian prisoner behind bars, especially these names. Therefore, we expect that in the second stage there will be an opportunity to release them.
The Israeli Defense Minister directed the army to prepare a plan to displace Palestinians from Gaza? If that happens, will the Qassam Brigades intervene again?
I don’t know what kind of plan he’s talking about, but dozens of plans were drawn up for fifteen months, during which entire neighborhoods were bombed and the infrastructure of the Strip and livelihoods, including water, hospitals, and schools, were systematically destroyed, in addition to the random killing. But all of that failed in the face of the resistance and steadfastness of the Palestinian people. I believe that he does not have the ability to prepare a plan, nor does he have the capacity to prepare one. They all failed in the generals’ plan, the settlement plan, the clans’ guidance plan, and the buffer zone plans.
Therefore, I do not expect him to have an alternative plan. The issue is not about Al-Qassam, but about the Palestinian citizen who has not and will not allow anyone to uproot them from their land.
But we now know that the occupation always breaks its promises.. Are there any guarantees?
True.. There are no 100% guarantees that the occupation will not return to war or assassinations, but we believe that after the occupation failed over 15 months to implement all its plans, meaning that it failed to break the resistance, failed to displace the population, and failed to recover the prisoners, but it will certainly keep trying.
There is also great pressure within the entity that returning to war would be devastating. We must not forget that while it is thinking about displacing the residents of Palestine, there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis in the Gaza Strip and northern Palestine who have not returned to their homes. Therefore, if it has room to make plans, it would be better to make plans for the return of the Israeli residents to their homes. Therefore, it is possible that it will break the covenants, but neither the resistance nor the people of Palestine will allow that.
For the excluded prisoners, what are the Arab countries proposed to go to?
In fact, the movement and mediators from Qatar and Egypt have communicated with various Arab and Islamic countries in the region to accommodate a number of prisoners. Turkey has accepted some of the prisoners and Qatar has also accepted a percentage. There are some who will remain in the Arab Republic of Egypt, and talks and dialogue are underway with other countries to accommodate them, but so far, nothing has been officially announced.
There is talk about hosting a number of Palestinians until Gaza is rebuilt? What is your comment on that?
The Palestinians will not leave Gaza. They have experience in rebuilding Gaza more than once after each aggression, whether in 2008, 2012, 2014, and in between, and 2021 without leaving. I mean, there is extensive experience in reconstruction and there is no need for this flimsy argument that people must leave. We have practiced this more than once, as entire neighborhoods in Gaza were rebuilt, but without leaving the Strip.
Earlier, the Arab Republic of Egypt built an entire city in northwest Gaza after the 2021 war. What is meant by this is that the idea of building in the presence of people, we practice it every day.
Who is the character that can represent the Palestinian scene and be agreed upon by all parties?
This matter is subject to Palestinian-Palestinian dialogue, and we have no objection to any Palestinian leader, as long as he adheres to the Palestinian constants, the rights of the Palestinians to their land, the establishment of an independent state, self-determination, the right of return, and even the Palestinian right to resistance, which is a right guaranteed by international law. Therefore, any Palestinian figure who adheres to these rights and is not a corrupt figure, and does not have non-Palestinian agendas, will certainly be acceptable to us.
Would you in Hamas accept that Marwan Barghouti be the president of the Palestinian Authority if he is nominated for that?
Marwan is one of the leaders of the Palestinian people, but now he is behind bars, so putting forward the name now is impractical, but if he comes out and the Palestinians agree to him, Hamas will certainly not stand in the way of the will of the Palestinian people.
After the martyrdom of Mohammed Deif, who is the likely person to succeed him in leading the Qassam Brigades?
So far, there is no information about an alternative candidate for this matter. In other words, it is left to the Qassam Brigades, and they have not announced anything yet. Therefore, the moment they agree on a figure from the Qassam leaders to lead the apparatus, they will announce it.
Mohammed Sinwar.. One of the most important names proposed and nominated recently to lead the Qassam Brigades, especially after the martyrdom of his older brother Yahya Sinwar?
Certainly possible.. Mohammed Sinwar Abu Ibrahim is one of the historical leaders of the Qassam Brigades and has a long history of resistance and confronting the occupation, but there are also other leaders in the Brigades who may be candidates for this position. But as I mentioned, this matter is left to the Qassam Brigades.
As for the Political Bureau… Will we soon see a candidate for the position of Head of the Political Bureau of Hamas?
There is no problem for the political bureau. There are three regions of the movement: Gaza, the West Bank, and abroad. Each of the three regions has someone who heads and manages it now, but another step is required, which is that a new president for the movement be nominated from the three regions.
Regarding this step, contacts and arrangements are now taking place within the movement to reach this goal, but these contacts and arrangements are taking place away from the media for security reasons in the first place, as well as because of the difficult and complex conditions in the Gaza Strip, and the difficulty of communication and contact. We expect to reach the goal in the coming period, but in general, the leadership of the regions is managing its work, and today there is a collective leadership for the movement, which is managing the central work of the movement. At the earliest opportunity, the movement will certainly choose a president for it and complete the rest of the positions.
Is it possible that the movement will resort to the idea of not announcing its leader, especially after the martyrdom of Ismail Haniyeh and Yahya Sinwar? This happened before after the martyrdom of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Rantissi?
It is possible… if the security situation requires it. This actually happened in 2003 and 2004, and in 2005 the movement’s leader was not officially announced, and this is possible to happen again. But this will be assessed at the time, because it depends on who the person will be chosen and where he lives, because the matter will be different if someone is chosen from inside Gaza or from outside Palestine. In other words, the idea is possible and depends on the person, the timing, and the country in which he lives.
Are there options for managing the scene in the Palestinian house?
I believe that the best option is a national unity government with national consensus from Palestinian professional technocrats who are not affiliated with any faction. If this option is not available, we are with the Egyptian proposal to form a community support committee, which is also from Gazan professional figures, to manage all the affairs of the Gaza Strip from Rafah to Beit Hanoun, whether health, education, economy, agriculture, electricity and water. This committee will coordinate with the government in Ramallah, and its political reference will be a presidential decree issued by President Mahmoud Abbas to form this committee. Otherwise, Hamas will lift its hand from the Strip and not interfere in it.
Is there a response from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas Abu Mazen?
So far, there has been no response, and the Palestinian Authority refuses to accept any of these options and does not offer an alternative option.
Why is President Mahmoud Abbas abandoning the Gaza Strip?
This question must be directed to President Abu Mazen, as it is an obvious and logical question. He is the president of the Palestinian people, at least in the occupied territories on the 1967 borders, such as Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It is logical that the president extends his powers to the areas of the Palestinian Authority and all of his people. Therefore, the absence of a national unity government or a community support committee is not a reasonable or logical option.
Is it possible to see Hamas leaders in Gaza soon?
Of course, we hope so. We are from Gaza, and we left a few days before the flood. Our highest wish is to return to our people in Gaza.
Dr. Basem Naim, if you were to return to Gaza, what is the first place you would visit and who is the first person you would want to see?
(Long sigh) This question is very difficult because the magnitude of the loss is great. We lost many loved ones from the family and relatives and from the leaders of the movement, and we lost our colleagues, doctors who worked for many years in the health sector in the Gaza Strip. And if I am destined to return, the first place I will go to is the grave of my mother who was martyred in this war.
The Washington Outsider Center for Information Warfare Analysis of the Interview and The Impact of Hamas Information Warfare Techniques, Provided As Feedback to Ms. Hefzy:
The interview with Bassem Naim is so far one of the most important and most revealing communications between Hamas, Egypt, and the international community. It underscores why Hamas has been so far extremely successful in reviving the “resistance” narrative and bringing in a broad international and reginal support despite the terrorist designation and extremist roots, ideology, and objectives.
Timing
Hamas, despite ideological extremism, commitment to violence, and hardliner positions, has elements of pragmatism, flexibility, and adaptability to circumstances that allows it to capitalize effectively on the perceived missteps and tone deafness of its opponents, be they Israel, the United States government, or other critics. Here, Bassem Naim, who aside from his leadership in the Gaza Health Ministry, has retained influence as an important international interlocutor between Hamas, South Africa, and may other countries, uses the controversy over President Trump’s proposal of the US Gaza takeover and privatization to position the Hamas political bureau as being responsive to international pressure and expectations, cooperating with Egypt, and seeking to avoid escalation – regardless of whether or not, this is an honest response, it is the right thing to say and will convince many critics of Hamas that Hamas is a pragmatic and cooperative party and that it following the wise leadership of Egypt and is open to reasonable ideas and considerations. So when the Arab world or the European Union or American progressives or the Global South listen to Naim’s comments, they will believe that Hamas is following the more practical solutions that will end in less violence and less human rights abuses for the Arab and Muslim residents of the Middle East than Trump’s proposal which is inviting potential more violence and unwelcome images of US troops forcibly escorting Gaza civilians into permanent exile. The timing is ideal also to break the ceasefire; in reality, Hamas ranks are replenished with the male convicts released during the first phase of the deal.
Whether Hamas is merely testing US reaction to provocations or whether it always planned to only go through with the first phase and then return to combat under some pretext, the controversy concern potential expulsion provides another justification, in addition to placing blame on Israel for alleged violations. Hamas is seeing to get the most out of an explosive issue when the Arab world is up in arms over Trump’s comments, and Trump himself is doubling down on the most extreme interpretation of his comments despite contradictions from his officials. And w here Netanyahu is publicly provoking other countries such as Saudi Arabia by trying to expose its alleged hypocrisy over unwillingness to take in Gaza refugees, which only is effective with his sympathizers, Hamas is using the occasion by claiming that none of these people would willingly leave anyway and advancing the idea of a wide regional support for the Palestinian cause. Netanyahu and Trump in this scenario come across as trying to divide the Arab world, whereas Naim presents Hamas as unifying the Arab world, and cooperating with pragmatic suggestions.
Bassam Naim’s legitimacy
Beyond his political roles, Naim has contributed opinion pieces to international media outlets, providing perspectives on Palestinian affairs and critiquing Western policies in the Middle East. His writings have appeared in platforms such as Al Jazeera and The Electronic Intifada. He has a lot of credibility with the particular segments of populations which support these outlets and who believe that Naim’s voices are reflective of the general position of Palestinian population. Most importantly, he lacks the equivalent counterparts from the West with the comparable level of broad engagement, institutional knowledge and support, popularity, and systemic engagement who could provide effective counternarratives in the Arab world.
For that reason, his voice goes virtually unchallenged, and certainly not in a direct or intellectual way. Dismissing Hamas as an illegitimate terrorist organization while negotiating with it as with a government, while failing to respond to Hamas narratives and thinkers, is a major flow in the Western strategy, and so the Western critics of Naim are unable to provide an effective strategic intellectual response to the audiences that appreciate Naim’s arguments. It is possible that any such responses would fall mostly on deaf ears, but there are many in the pro-Hamas camp who are misled abut the full implications of its activity or who are angry with Hamas but are not hearing serious and practical responses that could sway them and show that there is an interest in engagement.
Unity Government and the Egypt plan
It should come as no surprise that Bassem Naim is presenting Fatah/PA as the villain in the prospects for the Palestinian Unity government. Hamas and Fatah have a long history of deadly political rivalry, with anti-Israel position being practically the only unifying factor. There has been a score of political unity efforts with the assistance of a range of state actors, including Saudi Arabia, Russia, and others, which have either failed outright or only succeeded for a short period of time. Longstanding political differences sabotaged long-term prospects for cooperation beyond short term tactical coordination which included attacks on Israel.
The most glaring difference is that Fatah has been overall and despite some recent examples, particularly under Abbas, wary of Iran’s intervention in the regions, whereas Hamas, especially recently, has embraced Iran’s sponsorship. We are seeing that Hamas pressure has resulted in elements of Fatah breaking off from the official party line and PA policies, and joining Hamas and the Iran-backed Palestinian Islamic Jihad in enclaves which have presented as much a security threat to PA as to Israel, resulting in recent security operations. Hamas is a threat to Fatah survival and certainly to the Abbas branch of the party which is overall opposed to Iranian engagement. Iran engagement and supply of weapons to various renegade factions has increased substantially over the last few years, drawing in Jordan and the new Syrian transitional government into the fray as well, and increasing the prospects for regional destabilization. Therefore, when Naim is proposing unity government he knows well that
1) This cooperation will be inherently difficult and marred by distrust and challenges
2) Hamas will seek to dominate the implementation and to do little in terms of governance and much in terms of advancing destabilizing violent resistance activity and ideological extremism putting Fatah in a difficult position
3) Will be unacceptable to Israel and the United States
4) Will discredit Fatah/PA’s image as more moderate and pragmatic factions and “favorites” in the Arab world
5) Will leave the Palestinians with no options, increasing authoritarianism and erasing freedoms, human rights, and potential for civil society
But such a prospect would benefit Hamas by removing onus of responsibility for violent outbreaks and government while delivering more population under its provenance, more opportunities for graft, and greater territorial control and contiguity.
Regarding the Egypt plan, Hamas is eager to embrace anything that will guarantee its political and ideological survival, which will implicate its ability to continue recruiting, spreading the resistance narrative, and coming back to fight another day. Therefore, if Egypt is serious about convincing the US to back its reconstruction plan, it can agree to Hamas remaining in power, or having a rhetorical or informational mantle in the region. To be taken seriously, Egypt needs to commit to discreditation of Hamas and its rhetoric, including its genocidal and anti-Israel charter.
The Palestinian State
Bassem Naim is very coy in the way he uses language. He plays with words discussing the creation of the Palestinian state without emphasizing Hamas charter commitment to destroying Israel. This tactic aims at broad social appeal and support, with many believing that Hamas is merely fighting for Palestinian rights, that it is more pragmatic than it actually is, and that it will surely put down the arms once a Palestinian state is achieved.
However, through the recent war, Hamas has repeatedly objected to a two-state solution, underscoring that it has no interest in governance or humanitarian obligations towards the local civilian population. Naim manages to unite these two seemingly conflicting narratives without formally contradicting Hamas position. In short, Hamas is still against a two state solution, but it wants to deceive the readers of the interview that it is promoting peace and stability and that Israel is misreading Hamas intentions and deliberately exporting conflict.
Gaza Civilians
Another point where Naim is deliberately misleading his Arabic language audiences is the portion of the interview where he blames Israel for the civilian infrastructure destruction, high civilian casualty count, and humanitarian disaster in Gaza. This is a familiar pattern of denying that
1. Hamas violated a long-term ceasefire with Israel by attacking on October 7
2. That Hamas implicated civilian supporters in anti-Israel atrocities and abductions thus creating a problem it then needed to solve
3. That humanitarian disaster in Gaza was a by-product of the pre-war corruption and mismanagement and an avoidable conflict exacerbated by Hamas hostage-taking policy
4. That Hamas has built a labyrinth of tunnels under all of the civilian infrastructure in Gaza, creating physical and psychological terror operation that was used both against Israelis and the Gaza civilians who were terrorized by becoming prisoners of this policy in their own right, and being easily sacrificed at the alter of Hamas “resistance” narrative. NO one asked for their opinion or permission in being used as human shields.
5. Hamas has confiscated humanitarian aid from civilians, and Hamas leadership in Doha is sitting on billions of dollars and leaving in fancy hotels rather than distributing this assistance towards Gaza reconstruction. Naim has a fancy residence in South Africa, and is a frequent flier between Qatar and other places in the region.
The Future of Hamas
The important point that escapes most readers whether in the Arab or Western world is that
1. Al Qassem Brigades is looking towards identifying new leadership which indicates intention to continue their operations, perhaps drawing frm the pool of released convicts as masterminds
2. Hamas has three distinct branches – Gaza, West Bank, and International, which means is influence is well beyond Gaza strip, so addressing the extremism of the Hamas Resistance narrative and terrorism requires a holistic approach.
3. Hamas is evolving and despite military losses in Gaza is still able to spread and recruit and grow as an organization elsewhere. So the Hamas problem is not easily solved in the near future, and Donald trump’s comments about Gaza reconstruction ignore the reality that Hamas has a global and international presence and long-term objectives that extent far beyond Gaza, but that anything related to Gaza will be used to fuel and reenergize the organization in other areas.
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